Thoughts on a Sunday Morning

Did you know that if you click on your own profile, whatever location you listed for yourself is a link.  If you click on that link, it will tell you the other people who blog from your area.  Now, maybe not something you want to do if your location is "Southern California," but in a small place like Big Bear (& permutations such as "Big Bear Lake" & "Big Bear City") there are only about 100 blogs listed.  So, curious, i visited them.  (Tho i've just discovered that if you spell out "California" you find a different listing, meaning more.)

I found a couple that i'd like to follow.  But what surprised me more is that there are so many that have one post or 4 or 10 & then nothing.  And quite a few who have none at all!  A lot of the "bloggers" are real estate agents.  And one really surprising fellow with about 8 different profiles has 10-25 different blogs at each profile.  And most of those blogs had ONE post!  I guess rather than having continunity in one blog, he feels each post deserves a blog of its own.  

I guess some folks start a blog & then discover that it isn't their thing.  Duane started a blog (Croggled) long before i even knew what a blog was.  He has a total of four posts, one that i wrote.


My point?  Oh, just some thoughts when i realized it has been a long time since last i posted.  


Two weekends ago, when my ILs were here, we went to the Catholic Church.  It turned out that it was the day in their liturgical calendar that celebrates the "Assumption of Mary."  Say what?  All the hymns were ones celebrating Mary.  My Catholic ILs & my Catholic-raised husband were not aware of this church doctrine.  It states that Mary died, was buried, was raised again, & was taken up directly into heaven.  AND it became official church canon in 1950.  SAY WHAT? ! ! ! 


So, when we got home i did some research into the "Mariology" of the Catholic church.  The belief that was finally canonized in 1950 had been part of church tradition since the 3rd or 4th century.  However, folks, non-traditional church info - meaning factual rather than an evolving trend - began in the first century, not long after Jesus' death & resurrection.  Frankly, after listening to the songs & attribution to Mary & checking the church doctrine, the Catholic church - or at least the ones that choose to worship this way - are in great danger of putting Mary on equal footing, or even higher, than Jesus.  


Duane tells me that in catechism, he was taught that Mary is the only person ever born without sin.  It was about that point that Duane rejected Catholic tradition, although he continued to attend that church for many years.


Frankly, i've a lot to say that is positive about the Catholic church.  My friend Jessica (His Scribe) is doing a series (rather off & on) about our "reconcilable differences" with the Catholic church, looking at the ways we are similar.  But i'm rather taken aback by this Mariology.  Too much for me.


I do believe that it is important for us as Christians to love others - INCLUDING CHRISTIANS!  So often it seems that Christianity is so very divisive instead of presenting to loving image of Jesus i believe we are intended to reflect.  I've long thought of Christianity as being a mirror.  We don't have an image in & of ourselves, but we can reflect the glory of God.  In doing so we can shine a light into dark places.  But it seems that mirror has been shattered & we are reflecting bits of God's glory, but not a true image.  I can't pick up one shard & say, "This is what it is like to reflect God's glory.  It takes the full mirror to reflect the full glory.  Perhaps the day is coming when God will repair that mirror.


That was one of my problems with our former Lutheran church.  The pastor was so sure that his church & only his church had the full mirror & none of the others had any of it.  They were all in "error."  But i think that God is so much more than we can comprehend that we are ALL in error in some way or another.  So we need to treat one another with kindness & love, & recognize weakness & not tear down those that struggle.  I know we've had the discussion about the Catholic church before.  I do think that perhaps it is too easy to get caught up in Catholic doctrine, dogma, tradition, & theology & lose the way to Christ.  BUT i think that is a possibility in ALL churches.  We tend to get caught in doctrine, dogma, tradition, & theology.  Granted, some more than others, but those trappings tend to overshadow the simple message of Christ crucified & risen, the message that God sent his Son to be our bridge.  


Too many people, in the church & out of it, tend to want to skip the bridge & see if they can't jump the gulf themselves.  Some churches tend to water down the message of Christ by placing a lot of emphasis on rules & regulations, making us think that we can earn our own way.  But that is not the message that Jesus brought & lived out.  


Ok, much can be said on that, but i'm done.  Hopefully i made my point.


We attended the "other" Lutheran church last week.  We like it.  It is warm & friendly.  But we are not at the point of wanting to join a church, even on a regular basis.


I don't handle "authority" or politics well.  When i worked hospital, i found them to be very political.  I tried to make sure that i worked mostly when administration & management was NOT on premises (evening shifts).  I liked to do my job & do it well without being sucked into the political management bull that often got in the way of doing a good job.  I did my best when i worked 3 different hospitals part-time.  I was able to go & work with folks i liked doing work i liked.  I heard their stories & complaints.  When i left at the end of the shift my work was done or passed on to the next shift (very good for a procrastinator like myself).  I also got to leave the office politics behind.  Walk away.  Because it didn't effect me.  The worst mistake i ever made was to go full-time at one hospital.  Because then i was in the same mire day after day & it DID effect me.  

I'm feeling the same way about joining a church at this time.  People are frequently wishing us luck or blessings in "finding a home," but at this point that is NOT what we are looking for.  I have too much difficulty with too many of the doctrines in the churches.  If we visit on a weekend & they preach the Gospel, then i'm not involved in their doctrine or politics.  Now, i know that this sounds like i'm copping out, but it is simply where i am at the moment.  We seek fellowship with other believers & to worship in a church that preaches the Gospel.  But i do NOT want to get involved in doctrine/politics.  If we find a church that needs help on an issue, we will try to help.  If we can join in an ecumenical group that is trying to _____________ (feed the hungry, house the homeless, provide) we will likely try to help.  It is not that we are not willing to work, but that we are not willing to align with a particular doctrine at this point.  


Truth is too, we've not made many friends here with whom to socialize.  We may see folks in a restaurant or at the store & chat with them, but that is not, to me, a satisfying relationship.  I'm hoping that by going to several different churches we can make some friends that cut across denominational ties.  Maybe that is why i'm "seeking" Big Bear bloggers, too.  :)


Have a blessed Sunday. 





39 

Conversation

Our dear friend JT was here for a while yesterday.  He lives a couple of hours away.  He came up to help Duane take down the tree that is half gone & needs to come down.  They didn't do it, they decided they need equipment (rented) like a lift to work the top of the tree separately.  Without that, there would be a good chance that taking down the tree would also take down our front upstairs deck.  


So we got to visit.  



He was raised Catholic (like Duane) & his wife Protestant (like me).  They have been searching for a church.  He feels drawn back toward the Catholic church, but is having real issues with it.  He spoke to the priest in the parish where they live.  He would have so much to have to do before he could return to the Catholic church.  His wife had been married before & so she would have to go thru annulment on her previous marriage & they would have to be remarried in the Catholic church.  The priest told JT that he would "confess him" but "Only face to face.  I have to see your eyes to be sure you are sincere" ! ! ! 


His wife is confused by the veneration of Mary & praying to the saints.  



It seems to me that it is human tendency - & this comes thru so clearly in churches - that we say "This is good" or that or this or whatever, & we slap a coat of varnish on it & call it done.  But that is NOT how life is, nor do i believe it to be what God intends for the Christian life to be.  


If we have a truly living faith we can't slap varnish on it, or allow it to become petrified, & claim, "This is what God wants of me in my life."  Or worse, "This is what God wants of all Christians."   



This is not an exact analogy, but think of a tree & the way it grows.  It is not usually symmetrical.  It is influenced by the availability of water, & how the wind blows.  Now, we can make all the trees look alike.  Southern California especially is well known for extreme pruning.  Often a tree is difficult if not impossible to distinguish the species from the shape of it because the pruning causes it to look nothing like a naturally-grown tree.  I do believe that God does allow for some pruning in our lives.  But if we followed the pruning of man (the church), we would all be identical, perfectly symmetrical, show trees.  I do not believe that is what God would call us to be.  



It is stated in the Bible that we are all different members of the body with different jobs to do.  But sometimes i think that the different churches are all trying to force us into a mold where we will be identical members. 




The Catholic church has a long, long history (& much of it very ugly) & what has happened over time, i think, is that the different things they have "added" have become petrified.  



I had a piece of petrified wood as a child.  Wood turned to stone thru mineralization.  It was fascinating.  But even if it had still been part of the tree, it was no longer living.  I think that often the church is in danger of falling prey to this.  



Paul, in his first letter to the Corinthians that he wished the unmarried to remain so, but he did not command it.  But by the 4th century, the Church made it a requirement that ordained priests be single.  They took what Paul suggested & petrified it into law.  By doing so, they condemned some people.  Some people may have felt that they were called to priesthood, but not to celibacy.  To require this of them meant that they had to force themselves into a mold that God had not required.  



The Catholic church has done the same with dogmas of Mary & of the transubstantiation (bread & wine becoming body & blood).   What is more, because of the belief around this second dogma, for many years the laity did not receive wine in communion.  I've heard two reasons for this:  One, wine may have been difficult to obtain in some climates.  Two, there was the fear that the laity would spill the "holy blood of Christ."  This largely is changed again, & most communicants receive both bread & wine.  But if the reason was the second one, again, man has petrified something & made it so "holy" that it i out of reach for the majority of folks.  



Now, i'm picking on the Catholic church here, largely because these examples are easy for me to lay out & because that church has the longest history.  But essentially all denominational churches have done something similar.  When they state, "These are the important things to us" they are in a sense petrifying their stance.  This isn't all bad.  It is good to say, "This is what i believe."  



But there are other churches that take this elsewhere.  The Southern Baptist convention, when i was in college (about 1992?) split because there was a branch of the church that was putting much emphasis on what would be a social gospel - that of trying to help people eat & have shelter.  The staunchly conservative part of the church wasn't concerned about this - they felt the $$ should go toward more missionaries & building programs.  (This, i am sure is a very biased & simplified version of that split.)  But what really hit me when i was reading about this at the time, was that soon after that split the Southern Baptist convention was in danger of having another split, this time over the ratifying that a Southern Baptist had to believe in a 24 hour day, 7 day creation.  Legalism.  Rigidity.  No room left for any question or doubt.  No room left for humanity.  


It seems to me that the Council of Nicaea did all this work for us in 325 with the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven,
by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. 
He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

I guess i will never understand why we need a doctrine beyond this.  Many doctrines revolve around things like what will happen, exactly, in "the End Times" & did Noah really take 2 of each of the animals on the Ark, & is Mary sinless (so that she would be an appropriate vessel to mother our Lord). 


My question, does it really matter?  Won't God work this out to his glory & we will know what we need to know in his presence?  Why should we fight about it now?


Much is being said currently about Anne Rice distancing herself from Christianity.  I often would like to do that myself.  There is so much done in the name of Christ which i truly dislike.  I'm very much outside of what is called "Christian culture" & i didn't actually know that Anne Rice had professed Christianity until this began hitting the blogs.  All i knew was that she'd written vampire books that i've never read.  


The best i've read on this subject so far is Matt from The Church of No People:

. . .  So as much as I’d like to follow Anne and quit Christianity, while conveniently retaining my faith, I can’t.  (And really, neither can Anne.)  Christ died for people who annoy the living hell out of me, and it does me no good to dwell on how much some people annoy me.  Christ even died for people who would use him for personal gain, and I have nothing to say about it.  I hate saying that.  But I don’t get to say who Jesus has saved, and I don’t get to stop calling myself a Christian. . . Really, almost all of the pastors and Christians who irritate me are the ones getting all the attention.  They are the ones teaching false gospels and protesting funerals, and generally being hateful, and maybe they represent an incredibly small minority of us, and it just gets blown up bigger than it is.  I think I’m annoyed the most at Christians because my faith is the most important thing in my life.  If it takes such a small number to create the problem, maybe there’s enough of us, the other Christians, to be the solution. . . 

More is written there, but this is the part i really like & that convicted me.  Much as i'd like to walk away from the title "Christian" it isn't an option.  He also said in this post, somewhere, that the term "Christian" was a pejorative when it first began to be used.  It still is, of course, but i tend to think that we've changed the reason it is an insult, & not for the better.  


He also wrote the post, "Christians of a Dying Breed" that was good & started much interesting debate in the comments.  


Then there is this vid:  Reasons Why People Don't Go to Church


I'm not promoting this last one.  I'm afraid to say i had hoped better things of it.  Maybe i'm missing something, but it seemed to be a very shallow rendering of why some people are no longer part of a church.  There are reasons, good reasons, serious reasons why even older Christians no longer feel the church to be filling a need or even being relevant to their lives.  We are struggling with some of those very reasons.  


I do feel that for me the answer is to no longer look to fill my needs so much as to find a place where i can work.  Frankly, i've lived much of my life in depression & depression is little more than looking inward.  God has healed so much of that & i believe it is time for me to look outward & try to do more.  Have been working on that for a few years now.  However, that is something i find difficult & it rather backfired on us at the Lutheran church for the whole reason we joined that church was so that we could serve. 



37

Thinking trivial things

Gossip:  1.   idle talk or rumor, esp. about the personal or private affairs of others  2.  light, familiar talk or writing  3. (gossiper) a person given to tattling or idle talk  4.  (British) godparent  5.  (Archaic) a friend, esp. a woman

babble, chitchat, defamation, hearsay, idle talk, malicious talk, meddling, rumor, scandal, scuttlebutt, slander, small talk, busybody, gossipmonger, snoop, talebearer, tattler


(The last definition - 5 - makes sense as i've often read in older books like Dickens about the "old gossips" indicating women probably engaged in idle talk, but it makes sense that the word would take its current meaning if the women were given to idle talk when friends got together.)


I'm still really struggling to "let go."   It probably will be a while for me as we are people who have been very involved in church, it has occupied much of our thought & lives, & letting go of that won't be an easy thing.  But it has occurred to me that to say much more about it is gossip.  I have lots of theories & things to say, but they are not profitable.  


I ran into a dear friend yesterday when i was in town.  Elke came here from Germany as a child, so she is very Lutheran.  However, she said that she's stopped going to church.  The pamphlet i copied in a previous post was passed out at church.  It made her angry.  She said "That's not what church is about!"  And, "He (G) doesn't have the right to do that!"  Except, of course, he does.  He is implementing some old rules that most of the LCMS churches no longer follow (Elke says that when she went thru confirmation she was encouraged to visit other churches to learn about how other churches choose to do things).  But those old rules are still on the books & G has chosen to enforce them (in our opinion, in order to strengthen his rule & set fear in parishioners, but that may be my lack of charity speaking). 


I told Elke that Duane & i want to start a Bible Study & she's interested.  So that's good.  However, she is also a busy person, frequently on the go.  So, while she'd love to come & participate, i don't think commitment would be a part of it for her.  Still, it is a good place to begin.  (Although i have to admit that i hate the idea of starting something & having it peter out.)

Shine Jesus Shine


Lord, the light of your love is shining
In the midst of the darkness, shining
Jesus, light of the world, shine upon us
Set us free by the truth you now bring us
Shine on me, shine on me

Shine Jesus shine
Fill this land with the Father's glory
Blaze Spirit blaze
Set our hearts on fire
Flow river flow
Flood the nations with grace & mercy
Send forth your word Lord
And let there be light


Lord i come to your awesome presence
From the shadows into your radiance
By the blood i may enter your brightness
Search me, try me, consume all my darkness
Shine on me, shine on me.  


As we gaze on your kindly brightness
So our faces display your likeness
Ever changing from glory to glory
Mirrored here may our lives tell your story
Shine on me, shine on me


Cliff Richard (? not sure about the credit, he may just have been the artist who preformed this; i also saw Graham Kendrick credited)

We sang this on Sunday.  I've always liked this song.  It is repeating in my head, but i don't find it irritating as repeated music often tends to be.  I really, really liked the music on Sunday.  They sang some very easy to sing hymns & also a couple of praise songs.  They had MUSIC in that church with a choir & all.  I'm not running down "praise bands."  I used to love staying for the music at St. James when the praise band led.  (They called those of us who stayed from the more traditional service that had been held earlier, MOs - music only, 'cause we left when the music was done.)


But nothing that we've seen in church hopping has the heart in it like the St. James folks had.  I'd forgotten how much i loved singing in a church that really knows music until we visited the Methodist church on Sunday.  It also was incorporated into the service, not a "preliminary to the preaching" as is so often done in Protestant churches these days.  

Somehow the way churches have developed/evolved where they have all the music at the beginning & then a long, long sermon seems to have lost heart, for me.  Maybe it is just that i don't know most of the praise music they are singing now.  But it also seems to have lost a lot of the "flow" that services used to have.  The Baptist church Duane likes is really foreign to me.  They don't even have a closing hymn.  The pastor kind of says, "Bless you this week," after his prayer & we're done.  Now, i'm not running down this form of service.  It works for a lot of people (or they don't know what they're missing), but it doesn't work so well for me.  


Anyway, just a few thoughts on things that have happened in the past couple of days.



35

Something just occurred to me

While re-reading my previous post.

 

I guess i'm uncomfortable when folks are more passionate about their church than about their God.  

 

29

Quiet rambling

Yesterday Eva & i attended a Bible study at a local church that has a big youth group.  They served pizza, salad, & cake for dinner before the service.  

I'm not very impressed with this church.  I'm acquainted with one lady who attends there & she loves it & is very passionate about it.  But i didn't find it the "friendly family" she describes.  (Of course, two visits are not really enough to judge that.)  The kids did take Eva into their group, eventually.  Because she's so quiet, i have no idea if it was a good thing or a bad thing.  She simply says "It was okay."

A couple of the churches Duane & i have visited have essentially left strangers strictly alone.  This one is friendly during the greeting time (a couple of churches we attended weren't friendly even then), but largely this church seemed to be rather closed.  I started to use the word "insular" until i looked up the meaning (thinking it meant "closed" or "reserved" or maybe even a bit "unfriendly").  But part of the meaning is "bigoted," "narrow," or "petty."  I don't mean that.  

Duane didn't like this church from the get go.  I'm not quite sure why, because it doesn't seem to me to be all that different from several others we've attended.  

But i will say, tho i'm going to sound very critical, i'm finding some of these churches don't seem to be much more than Christian clubs.  These folks seem to be very glad to be there with the people they know & love & enjoy the time together & they do study the Word of God.  However, because they are so comfortable with their setting, they do seem to be rather closed to new folk.  

Now, i'm sure that if we began to attend there regularly these folks would open that circle, we'd be included & they'd be happy to use whatever we bring to the table.  But then we'd be part of that inner, closed circle.  Somehow, that's just not where i want to be & part of me thinks that it isn't enough.  I don't want to be part of some "Christian club" where my life revolves around the church & my church friends & little else.  To me being a Christian is much more than that.  Again, it will sound like i'm criticizing these folks.  That really is not my intent.  I don't know them well enough.  They do seem to be passionate about God.  They are having a tent revival next week.  (That alone makes me nervous, personally.  Revivals have not been a positive thing in my life.)

 

I feel like i'm stumbling around trying to find words for a feeling i can't quite explain.  

I guess it seems to me that being a Christian is more than going to Cheers where "everybody knows your name."  I don't know how else to say it.  On the other hand, that is a basic, human need.  

In his talk yesterday, the Bible study leader touched on Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus . . . "  Again, my heart aches for G, who i believe doesn't understand this.  It seems to me that G chooses to live in pain & sorrow when he can't embrace this.  I wonder if i'm just being stubborn.  I wonder if it is something wrong with me that i can't walk away from that church.  I wonder if the pain i feel when thinking about them is something broken in me, or simply me being broken for them.  (In other words, am i being dysfunctional & stubborn in regard to them, or am i honestly, sincerely concerned for them?)  I don't have an answer to that for i don't know.  Part of me wants to keep banging my head against that wall, trying to break thru.  

 

However, from all that i've learned of Lutheran (Missouri Synod) doctrine since leaving that church, the over-use of shame & guilt (& lack of understanding that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus) seems to be a hallmark of many of the churches belonging to this particular branch.  It also seems to be that those who are attempting to break away from that pattern are being accused of being "soft on sin" & unscriptural.  

We have had no word from that church now, 1 month later.  It seems Duane is right & they are not going to answer our questions.

 

I'm finding that i'm really pulling away from wanting to join another church, or even attend one regularly.  I'm much more into the "church hopping" than before.  I don't even want to be at the same place more than once or twice a month.  The idea of joining another church is unthinkable, at this time. 

________________________________

 

This is completely off topic.

 

Anyone who has been reading my blogs for any length of time knows that it has been my deep, deep desire to be a mama.  From the time i was a small child myself i wanted to be a mama.  It seems to be part of the very core of who i am.  I began caring for other folks' children when i was 12, & was a nanny for a while when i was a teen.  I desperately wanted my "nanny baby" to be my own.  I loved that child with all my heart, & wanted children of my own as well.

 

It seems to me to be a cruel thing that this isn't going to happen for us.  I could go off on that theme for a long time.  It also seems very cruel to me that my sister Larkin, who didn't even like children when we were younger, was blessed with six children.  Everyone talks about how she loves babies so much & "can't get enough of them."  I.can.not.even.begin.to.use.words.that.describe.the.depths.of.pain.this.is.for.me.  It is almost as if she has robbed me of my own personality.  (Yes, i know this is sick & selfish.  Part of it goes back to childhood issues i've addressed elsewhere.  I can only say that the way i was raised, if someone one in our family had a talent or emotion, only ONE person was allowed to have it.  Too difficult to try to explain more without many more paragraphs.)  

I didn't mean to digress here.  I guess the issue is more of my awareness right now with Eva here, tho i've felt that way before in conversation with Elsa.  

But my point is something different.  

It often has been that i see a child on a blog or when i'm out shopping, & i think, "Kaylee would be that age."  Or, "That girl is about six months younger/older than Kaylee would be."  

But recently, this has changed a little.  I occasionally see disabled children with their parents, & think, "That could be my child."

Now, please, please know that i'm not being critical of handicapped folks.  I know that we would have loved our daughter however she was presented to us.  I'm not in any way saying that disabled children are less lovable or anything of the sort.  My point, however, is that i know that at my current functioning, i'd struggle to care for a child with "normal" energy/functioning/skills.  To have a special needs child would completely overwhelm us & i don't know how we would manage it.  

I "KNOW" all these things.  But it doesn't, not in any way, not for one moment, "fix" the desire for a child which is that deep, deep part of me, my personality, my life.  This seems to be a dissonance, a conflict, which is unresolvable.

 

28

Yada, yada, whinging about the weekend

I bit the bullet & had the brief discussion with the pastor regarding what happened on Friday.   I'm feeling almost worse over the conversation than if i had left it alone.

I asked when he called the insurance company & he didn't know what i was talking about.  When i said, "At what point did you call the insurance company & find out they wouldn't cover what i do?"  he told me he never made a call.  I must have looked blank. 


He said, "I didn't have to.  Anything not directly related to what we do here, church-related, is not covered."


(Hello??? You think your rummage sale is covered?  You've a greater chance at being sued for someone tripping in the parking lot than the work i do.  If your rummage sale is covered, then my doing work for donations to the church is covered as well.  If i'm not covered, i can't see how the rummage sale/fundraiser would be.)


He told me "No one knew you were coming."  


(???  I told the lady in charge three different times i would be there.)


He agreed that what happened would make me feel disrespected, but again stated, "No one knew you were coming."  He also said that had anyone known i was coming, he probably would have said i could do it this year, but not in future years.  Water under the bridge.  As he never knew what occurred Friday AM, he is not responsible for the reaction of the lady who was running the show.



I told him there is very little chance that i'd ever be sued & that i have insurance.  It made no difference to him.  "Churches, especially conservative churches, are being sued more & more," was his response.


Don't i know it?  Our church down the hill is about to be taken from the people who paid for & built it because the diocese has laid claim to it.  That church did everything it could to protect itself from the position in which it find itself, but it didn't make any difference.  Does that mean that God is removed from this process? The people there are distressed, but are trusting God to be in their midst.


I totally agree with taking necessary precautions.  But there is also over the top.  I think what he has chosen to do is over the top.  If he is that concerned, he shouldn't have the rummage sale there, either.  

I could have done something that was beneficial for the church, beneficial for the people i worked on, that would have raised a small amount of money for them, & would have had virtually no risk.  That i was told i could not do so on some mythical risk seems to me to outline the problems i'm having in this church.   


This pastor tells us to trust God & have faith in him, but then does something like this that seems to negate all the trust & faith.  If i was in a profession that had a higher risk of being sued, i could completely understand the concern.  That is not the case.  If this dubious chance of being sued was something truly potential, then yes, by all means err on the side of caution.  As there is essentially no risk, why not do good & trust God?


Amrita, you are right, we are worlds apart.  In the US, folks sue at the drop of a pin if they think they can get money for it.  It does happen.  But again, i think the church runs a greater risk of that by having folks buy stuff from us that is used.  Or by selling hot dogs.  If someone really wanted to be devious & sue the church, we have cracks in the pavement they could "trip" on & have a way to sue us.  It hasn't happened yet, in years of running this rummage sale.  But our pastor believes that people are evil, & cannot be good.  I tend to believe that most people want to be/try to be good & honest (even tho none of us can ever be as good as God). 


It was kind of the final straw for me today, when in his sermon he yelled at us about not being joyful.  He asked the congregation of we believe what we actually say in the Apostle's Creed.  Yes, of course, was the response.  "THEN WHY AREN'T YOU JOYFUL?" he shouted.  "If you believe what we state in the creed, you have to be joyful.  If you aren't joyful, you aren't saved."  (This just after telling us that if we don't know if we are saved or not, we're not reading the Bible; the Bible gives us the hope & promise of salvation.)  The fact is i do, on occasion, feel that incredible joy of my salvation, of being part of God & having him in my life & that has never occurred after being chastised like this in church. 


Duane responded negatively to his joyful stuff, too.  But he didn't recognize it for what it was:  Manipulation & shaming.  


Ok, he & i have now talked about this in depth.  This is what it comes down to:  This church doesn't work for us.  But we've an emotional attachment to it & the people there.  Therefore, we feel badly that it "doesn't work."  It hurts that we need to leave it.  It doesn't mean that we should stay.  It means that it hurts to leave.  It doesn't mean that we are judging it bad or criticizing it in a way to be gossiping or creating problems.  It.Just.Does.Not.Work.


Move on. 



19

Negativity

It is a big part of our culture not to be negative, not to complain, to focus on the positive.  There is much to be said about this, too.  Trent, at The Simple Dollar wrote a post recently on The Cost of Negativity & how he & a co-worker were able to turn a difficult situation around.  

To a large degree, we have a lot of choice in how we see things.  Is the glass half empty or half full?  Do we take lemons & make lemonade?  Yet, somehow in humans it is nature to see the dark, the "off," the errors.  If you look at a blank sheet of paper that has a small dark mark on it somewhere, the dark mark is what draws your attention.  So is human nature.  We tend to look at that & not at the rest that is good.

I read a study some years ago that said that depressed people have a more realistic outlook than folks who are not depressed.  Non-depressed people tended to color things more brightly than reality actually deserved.  Now, i'm not saying that we need to hold to harsh realism all the time.  I think an optimistic attitude & being hopeful is a very good thing.  I think it helps us get thru the dark times.

There is another side to this, however.  Too much focus on "the bright side of life" can make our sight dim.  (Sorry just had to throw that in.)  There are times when always looking for the positive blinds us to reality.  There are times we need to be realistic & not continually look for the best & the brightest, but face the situation as it actually is.  For more on that, check out Barbara Ehrenreich's  Bright-Sided:  How the Relentless Promotion of Positive Thinking has Undermined America.  It is not my intent to go into this too deeply, but just to say that "relentless promotion of positive thinking" can get in the way of grieving & is often unkind to push when someone is going thru a loss.

This was a bit of digression to give some backstory to what i have to say.  

I may be very close to being willing to walk away from our Lutheran church.  

I was advised to inform our pastor that we are visiting other churches.  I see the wisdom in this advice as the church currently seems to believe we are not attending due to my struggle with chronic fatigue.  That feels deceptive to me.  We have not acted on this advice, however.  There just seems to be no way to do this without being highly critical.  

I don't want to be critical, & yet i am.  We have worked very hard at not talking about our criticisms (not to "complain") to other members as we do not want to create problems & divisions in the church.  In talking it over, Duane & i feel we have worked very hard to see the glass as half full in this situation & have made a lot of explanations & excuses for the things that have been done.  

Dear friend Cindy suggested that we stick to the factual:  

I was very disturbed that pastor has said from the pulpit (& in private conversation) that none of the other churches  are "doing it right" & most no longer honor Jesus & many are removing the crosses from the churches.  Because this disturbed me, we decided to check it out & have found it not to be true.  

I discussed this at length with John on Thursday.  He agreed with Cindy's approach & suggested - very strongly suggested - that we stick to ONE point.  He said that 1.  we can't change our pastor or the situation  2.  going in with a "laundry list" of things bothering us will not be beneficial & 3.  using a "laundry list" will just make things messy.  

To the above suggested by Cindy, he recommended adding, "Yes i have health issues, but they are chronic & will not be resolved quickly.  There is more going on than just my health.  (Insert the above here.)  We need to be ecumenical & will be attending other churches."  Also he recommended to keep the conversation short.

That said, if the pastor pushes for more we can go into more detail if we wish.  Duane & i discussed this & decided that if we need it to be short then Duane alone should discuss this with the pastor.  Both of us together in a specially arranged visit with him would give it too much weight & too much importance. 

Because Duane was going to have this conversation, i passed up the perfect opportunity yesterday to say this.  Pastor walked me to my car when i left the rummage sale.  I should have said this then.  I'm not very good at coming up with things quickly, especially when i'm stressed or angry.  (I was quite angry.  Gave that story at my other blog.) I'm not good at handling conflict at all.  

Which made me realize i could take another approach with this conversation.

"I'm very bad at dealing with conflict.  I run from conflict when i can.  I have been struggling with & very conflicted over doctrine being taught here & we have been attending other churches."  

Of course, that could raise questions of what in the doctrine i don't like.  I'm not sure i could answer that.  As i've not attended other Lutheran churches (except an occasional visit here or there), i've no idea if what i'm struggling with is actual Lutheran doctrine, or our pastor's presentation of it.  I lean toward the latter.  Much as i like him, i don't like many of his opinions, especially when they are preached as if they are Biblical doctrine.

It has been interesting for me to discover thru this that Duane recognizes no church authority, & i'm rather the opposite.  

Catholic hierarchy places the deacons & priests above the people, the bishops above the priests, the arch bishops . . . etc.  Taken literally, the Catholics have taught for a long time that you can't get to Jesus directly, you need an intermediary, whether that is a priest, a saint, or Mary.  Those intermediaries are in authority of those seeking their help.  

Duane long ago rejected this when he was a child.  (I have told you Duane is highly intelligent, right?)  When he was in CCD or catechism classes or something, he saw the problems within the church teaching.  When he was not given adequate answers to his questions, he rejected the church authority over him.  He essentially said to himself, "I am a Catholic Christian but not Roman Catholic.  My only authority is Jesus himself.  I do not answer to any other authority."  I doubt he did this as literally as i'm outlining, but that was his thinking.  

The churches i was raised in had a pastor, deacons &/or elders, but little other authority (certainly nothing like a hierarchy with bishops, archbishops, & a pope).  Yet, somehow, when i am sitting in a service, i do feel i am "under the authority" of the person speaking, even if it is only for that hour.  Which means i can become very uncomfortable in a church service in a short time.  I've no idea where this view came from for me.  I think it has played a huge part in my discomfort in our current church as i have felt that the pastor's opinions have some authority that gives them more weight than the opinions of others. 

I think it would be much better if i could adopt Duane's philosophy, but it will be a struggle to change something so ingrained.  

Since i can't say it elsewhere, here i my laundry list of things that have bothered me & i need to keep to myself.  Some of these things are huge, others are not very important but simply irritating.  In no particular order:

The condemnation of other churches

Lack of charity with other churches

The belief that we can't know if we will really make it to heaven to be with God

The focus on the smallness, the wickedness of people rather than on the greatness of God

A rigidness about "upholding the doctrines" that excludes other people

Rigidity at the age a child can join the church & take communion

Great pride in being "Lutheran"

Excluding others in that pride

Much use of shaming & inability to differentiate between guilt & shame

Interruption of the liturgy in order to explain the history of the liturgy

Changing the liturgy to suit the wishes of the congregation

Just an overwhelming sense of negativity

The pastor starts programs that peter out within a short time (So far, since we began this church just over 3 years ago, the programs that have died off within a short time of starting:  Saturday evening service; Saturday Bible Studies; a youth drama class; an Aikido class; a book club; quarterly pot lucks; catechism classes for youth to join the church; children's Sunday school; VBS has been done but this pastor didn't want to do it; church newsletter) 

I'm sure there is more.  This is enough for me now.

To be fair, here is the list of the good we see in this church:

They truly love Jesus

They try to uphold the Bible as the Word of God

They are a loving church

They are a friendly church

They work to make people feel welcome

They are concerned about the needs & problems of the congregation

 

I have to ask myself, why don't these balance?   They should, i think.  Yet somehow i'm only seeing the splotch on the paper, instead of all that is on the rest of it that is beautiful.  I guess, for me, that these past 3 years have been some form of water torture.  I never know when that drop of water will fall on my head, & it is only a drop of water.  But this has happened often enough now that my head is soaked, i'm tired, & i don't want to do this any more. 

18

I struggle with titles

I always have so much to say "in my head" & have such a hard time "putting it on paper."

Duane & i have been "church hopping" as i've not been very comfortable at the church where we are members.  We don't expect to find a place that fits us, which is why we don't plan to settle somewhere.  We plan to continue to "hop" for some time.  

I do feel kind of strange - the Lutheran Church thinks we've not been there because of illness.  They sent me a flower arrangement.  I told someone i felt guilty, but that's not true.  I just feel kind of odd, weird.

The big problem has been how do we decide where to go on a particular Sunday?  I don't really want to leave it up to how i feel any one day.  When i do that, we might fall into the pattern - like last week - of not going anywhere at all.  We could do it as:  The first Sunday we go to X, the second Sunday we go to Y . . . 

Duane suggested that we choose 6 churches (not including the Lutheran - we do intend to go there still "regularly," maybe once every six weeks or so), & assign them a number.  Then roll a die.  I laughed when he suggested it, & he got a little defensive, but i wasn't laughing at him or putting down his idea.  It is as good as any other.  I just laughed because i thought it the strangest way to choose a church i'd ever heard.

__________________________

I've several windows open on the computer because i wanted to write about what was there, but not to bookmark them.  Bookmarks tend to get lost in the shuffle frankly.  If i keep a window open, eventually i have to do something with it.

The first i have open in as interview at the blog The Church of No People.  It is an interview with someone named Jason.  He talked of his experience growing up in an Evangelical church.

Until my last couple years of high school, my biggest doubts were about my salvation. I grew up in a very evangelistic church culture.  Lots of traveling evangelists came through, and they were very good at getting people worked up about whether or not they really knew Jesus as their savior, and whether or not they were going to hell. I had friends, and even parents of friends, who got "saved" multiple times. I never had the guts to get re-saved, but I spent most of my adolescent and teen years worried that I wasn't officially a child of God, in the born-again evangelical sense.


Then, once I got past the am-I-saved-or-not? doubts, I moved on to bigger and wilder doubts -- the ones about whether or not God even exists. That's where I've been for the last decade or so. The biggest stumbling block for me has been education. The more I learn about the Bible and the history of theology, the more I learn about science and the human brain, the more I learn about philosophy and psychology and sociology, the more I wonder whether religion is just something we've made up. 

You’ve pointed out that your Christian background is southern Baptist. Have you found the Baptist church (or any church for that matter) to be a really good place to explore issues of doubt?

Um, no. Though of course there are pockets of grace and understanding everywhere, the Baptist church as a whole is not one that is comfortable with uncertainty. It is steadfastly conservative in politics, in theology, and in practice. Doubts are, by definition, not very conservative. But I'm part of a creative and merciful small-church community that has allowed me to play a significant role here despite my doubts and questions. 

This was definitely my experience, especially the "Lots of traveling evangelists came thru, & they were very good at getting people worked up about whether or not they really knew Jesus as their savior, & whether or not they were going to hell."  I don't know why it is that this seems to be the evangelical version of preaching.  In my growing up, it wasn't just traveling evangelists, however.  Every week the pastor would preach in a manner that indicated that we just couldn't be sure & we'd better repent.  Every service would have an "altar call."  

This is why i found the Episcopal/Anglican church to be such a relief to me.  It is not that they didn't recognize that people need Jesus, but that they did this bringing folks to the Lord in what i consider a more responsible manner.  It is also why i'm struggling some with the Lutheran Church.  The Lutheran Church evidentally doesn't believe that we can be sure about salvation.

Now, frankly, i'm not a "once saved, always saved" kind of person.  But:

1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus . . . 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17  Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory . . . 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:1;16, 17;38,39 NIV

I firmly believe that if we desire to be "in Christ" & part of God's kingdom, we have that freedom & the security of knowing we belong to God.  Conversely, for the folks who want no part of God, even if they claimed to be Christians at one time, i do not believe God will force himself on them.  As someone i love to read (Anna by Fynn) once said, "God is a gentleman." 

I know that i once struggled with the security of "knowing" i was saved, i doubted my salvation.  But God does not lie.  Now, as an adult & somewhat more mature, i don't understand the preaching that makes folks feel insecure.  God has promised us life with him if we are "in Christ Jesus."  What is there to doubt???

______________________

I came across another post that really spoke to me.  It is called "Why do they hate us?" by a blogger called The Internet Monk.  Evidently he died very recently.  The Jason of the last section was giving tribute to him & mentioned this post.  It is speaking of Evangelical Christians.  

It resonates with me.  I am a Christian, & therefore i really struggle with much of my feelings (mostly negative) of the Evangelical persuasion.  I've not had good or happy experiences with much of my time with that particular doctrine, & i don't necessarily agree or accept much of what they push. 

(Disclaimer here, i've several friends of the Evangelical bent, & i love them very much.  This is not directed at any one person.)

I think what i find difficult is that many Evangelicals tend to be so rigid.  I've already run into it up here, the Baptist Church claiming, "We're the only ones who've got it right."  I do not, of course, believe that "all roads lead to God."  However, that said, within Jesus Christ, i believe that there are a number of different ways that God uses to lead us, call us, use us.  I don't believe there is any one church that "has it all right" simply because the Gospels are too broad.  We humans have a hard time with that & tend to narrow it to a doctrine we can grasp. 

But i do struggle with what i was taught as a child, that is, the Evangelicals are the only ones who are right & the rest are lost.  That the only way to be a Christian is to do ________, & _________, & __________.  Usually having to do with Bible reading & devotions & church attendance.  

Um, it seems to me that we are back to law.  But i know a lot of folks caught in that web.  I know of 5 people who were raised in the (Evangelical) church where i was raised who as young adults left the church never to return (to my knowledge, i've not been in touch with them in years).  I know another one who didn't leave the church but was so crippled by her doubts about her salvation & that God could "really" love her (she believed she had to be a goat not a sheep) that her functioning was impaired.  I ached for her beliefs - tho they mirrored mine - not believing God wanted her to live in that despair.  But she couldn't/wouldn't listen to my arguments, for we had been taught that the Evangelical/Baptist teachings were all that were right & true.  

Again, i just don't believe God desires his chosen, his children to live in such despair & defeat.  For 99 out of 100 folks attending those churches, they perhaps don't have a problem with this.  For the 1 percent of us, however, it can be a real struggle.  

Another post from The Internet Monk: Why I am a Christian 

___________________________

I can't claim that i'm living "as i should" as a Christian.  Since the end of Lent, i've struggled with devotions & even talking to God regularly.  I still struggle some with bitterness that "God won't give" me what i desire.  I have a hard time with Christian novels where the person struggles & struggles & struggles & then submits & suddenly life is great & they achieve their hearts' desires.  

I don't think it is real.  I don't think it happens all that often.  God's promises to the people of the New Covenant, to folks of the New Testament age, to Christians are the hope of new life in Christ & in the kingdom to come.  I think we in the US, we of a lot of privilege forget this.  Prosperity gospel is a lie. 

I think we forget that there are people who die for the gospel, who are persecuted, who lose what they have.  I think we forget that there are a lot of people who don't have that "happy ending" of novels here on earth.  

That said, of course i want my happy ending.  I struggle with my reality, but even tho i struggle, i accept that my life is not going to follow the pattern my desires would dictate.

What is more, i don't want to be a "cultural Christian."  This is going to sound judgmental, & i don't mean it to be, but i don't want to attend a church just for it to become a social club for me.  

Now, don't get me wrong.  I want to make friends & to have more folks in my life.  Duane & i seem too isolated to me.  I think we need to develop more relationships.  Church is a good place for that to happen.  But i don't want my social & cultural status in a church to define me as a Christian.  I don't know if i'm saying this right.

Some months ago i began following a blog called "Stuff Christians Like."  Some of the things he said early on resonated with me & made an impact.  But as time went on, i found that much of it did not, because i'm not part of that cultural Christianity, & i don't want to be.  Some of what he was talking about became more clear to me in some of the churches we've visited.  

I met someone else recently who commented on this.  She mentioned a specific church (which we have visited) & said she was surprised at her treatment there.  She said she sat in a "dead zone" with about 15 feet on all sides of her empty.  The people didn't want to meet new folks, they wanted to be with their friends.  That was our experience at that church as well.  It also had the requsite band at the front who played half an hour of contemporary worship music before the pastor got up to do a 50 minute sermon.  

Now, please don't misunderstand me.  I'm not knocking this church.  It does preach the Gospel, not a watered down version or some prosperity junk.  I'm sure it meets the needs in the lives of many.  I'm sure it helps people meet Jesus & learn about being a Christian.  As i said earlier, i believe that within the Christian faith there are many different variations that honor God.

But i don't want to be part of that.  To me, for me, it would be too shallow.  It would be taking a cultural way of being a Christian, & that i don't want.  I just don't know how to say it well, & given my current lack of real spiritual discipline it even sounds hypocritical, but i want something deeper.

That's enough for one night, i think.  It is clear why i've not written in a while.  I've so much bottled up inside that it has been difficult to write - & very wordy as well.  

The peace of the Lord be always with you !  :)

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