30 May 2010

Yada, yada, whinging about the weekend

I bit the bullet & had the brief discussion with the pastor regarding what happened on Friday.   I'm feeling almost worse over the conversation than if i had left it alone.

I asked when he called the insurance company & he didn't know what i was talking about.  When i said, "At what point did you call the insurance company & find out they wouldn't cover what i do?"  he told me he never made a call.  I must have looked blank. 


He said, "I didn't have to.  Anything not directly related to what we do here, church-related, is not covered."


(Hello??? You think your rummage sale is covered?  You've a greater chance at being sued for someone tripping in the parking lot than the work i do.  If your rummage sale is covered, then my doing work for donations to the church is covered as well.  If i'm not covered, i can't see how the rummage sale/fundraiser would be.)


He told me "No one knew you were coming."  


(???  I told the lady in charge three different times i would be there.)


He agreed that what happened would make me feel disrespected, but again stated, "No one knew you were coming."  He also said that had anyone known i was coming, he probably would have said i could do it this year, but not in future years.  Water under the bridge.  As he never knew what occurred Friday AM, he is not responsible for the reaction of the lady who was running the show.



I told him there is very little chance that i'd ever be sued & that i have insurance.  It made no difference to him.  "Churches, especially conservative churches, are being sued more & more," was his response.


Don't i know it?  Our church down the hill is about to be taken from the people who paid for & built it because the diocese has laid claim to it.  That church did everything it could to protect itself from the position in which it find itself, but it didn't make any difference.  Does that mean that God is removed from this process? The people there are distressed, but are trusting God to be in their midst.


I totally agree with taking necessary precautions.  But there is also over the top.  I think what he has chosen to do is over the top.  If he is that concerned, he shouldn't have the rummage sale there, either.  

I could have done something that was beneficial for the church, beneficial for the people i worked on, that would have raised a small amount of money for them, & would have had virtually no risk.  That i was told i could not do so on some mythical risk seems to me to outline the problems i'm having in this church.   


This pastor tells us to trust God & have faith in him, but then does something like this that seems to negate all the trust & faith.  If i was in a profession that had a higher risk of being sued, i could completely understand the concern.  That is not the case.  If this dubious chance of being sued was something truly potential, then yes, by all means err on the side of caution.  As there is essentially no risk, why not do good & trust God?


Amrita, you are right, we are worlds apart.  In the US, folks sue at the drop of a pin if they think they can get money for it.  It does happen.  But again, i think the church runs a greater risk of that by having folks buy stuff from us that is used.  Or by selling hot dogs.  If someone really wanted to be devious & sue the church, we have cracks in the pavement they could "trip" on & have a way to sue us.  It hasn't happened yet, in years of running this rummage sale.  But our pastor believes that people are evil, & cannot be good.  I tend to believe that most people want to be/try to be good & honest (even tho none of us can ever be as good as God). 


It was kind of the final straw for me today, when in his sermon he yelled at us about not being joyful.  He asked the congregation of we believe what we actually say in the Apostle's Creed.  Yes, of course, was the response.  "THEN WHY AREN'T YOU JOYFUL?" he shouted.  "If you believe what we state in the creed, you have to be joyful.  If you aren't joyful, you aren't saved."  (This just after telling us that if we don't know if we are saved or not, we're not reading the Bible; the Bible gives us the hope & promise of salvation.)  The fact is i do, on occasion, feel that incredible joy of my salvation, of being part of God & having him in my life & that has never occurred after being chastised like this in church. 


Duane responded negatively to his joyful stuff, too.  But he didn't recognize it for what it was:  Manipulation & shaming.  


Ok, he & i have now talked about this in depth.  This is what it comes down to:  This church doesn't work for us.  But we've an emotional attachment to it & the people there.  Therefore, we feel badly that it "doesn't work."  It hurts that we need to leave it.  It doesn't mean that we should stay.  It means that it hurts to leave.  It doesn't mean that we are judging it bad or criticizing it in a way to be gossiping or creating problems.  It.Just.Does.Not.Work.


Move on. 



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7 comments:

Kathi said...

Ugh. So much internal conflict over church. I so understand. I also understand how annoying and infuriating it is to listen to yelling preachers.

I can tell you, though, that I haven't felt as much peace since we "left church." We haven't left God or his people, just a building full of rules and silliness. What I have especially liked is how we feel like we have more freedom with where our giving goes.

I will pray for you and your husband to find peace in the midst of the inner battles you're struggling with.

Amrita said...

(Hello??? You think your rummage sale is covered? You've a greater chance at being sued for someone tripping in the parking lot than the work i do. If your rummage sale is covered, then my doing work for donations to the church is covered as well. If i'm not covered, i can't see how the rummage sale/fundraiser would be.)

Good for you Kathryn - very good point you made there.

What of the food stuff people sold at the sale - or second hand artivles...???

I am glad you talked with the Pastir.

Many time s I feel frustrated with my church too, I take it as a spiritual discipline.

Rosemary said...

I am glad you talked it over with the pastor, I think it clarified many things you've been struggling with for some time.

I believe man to be good and wanting to do good but that we sin and want to be in good stead with God. I don't understand people who manipulate our feelings in order to try and bring us closer to God, God is in all of us and is in the love He shows us. God doesn't need manipulation to bring people.

I am sorry you are choosing to leave this church, but I realize this was not a rash decision but one you and Duane have been deliberate and thoughtful about, and I wish you some peace regarding that decision. I also hope you find a congregation where the joyous soul in you finds a happy home with other like-minded people.

Mrs. Mac said...

It is a good time to leave. Emotional ties are not good enough reason to stay. I'd say this past sermon was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Kathryn said...

Hi Kathi - yes, internal conflict & it doesn't feel good! Thank you for sharing; i know i'm not the only one who has felt this, but it is good to hear from others. Especially as this is rather painful for us.

I don't think we're ready to quit all churches at this time, & certainly we'd be open to a house church if we could find one, but i am at peace about walking away from this one. We'll see where this path leads.


Amrita, i find the logic this pastor used faulty.

They sell used clothing, furniture, toys, appliances, & whatever else people donate. They also sell chili, hotdogs, chips & soda. And baked goods the ladies make. All of these things have some risk when being sold. Also, folks who probably never attend a church come onto the church property, & should someone trip & fall, the church is at a liability risk.

We've attended this church over 3 years now, & i've been struggling with issues for about 2. I kept trying to see it as spiritual discipline & "stretching me" in my faith. But the fact is, if a church is preaching things that are not "building up" then often they are "tearing down" & somehow there has to be a balance. No church is perfect, & i know we won't find one (because church is made up of people just like me, flawed & stubborn :). But this church has been tearing me down more than building me up & i can't do it anymore.

Thanks, Rosemary. "Clarification" is exactly what i feel has come. I'm sorry, too, to be leaving. This church has much to commend it. But it has just been too much of a struggle for me. I don't tolerate manipulation well, & like you, i don't understand folks who use it to try to "drive people to God."

Mrs. Mac - you said it so accurately & succinctly! Thank you. :)

James Johnson said...

The bad news is that your pastor is not likely to change his style and sadly, may even get worse (more negative).

The good news is that there are churches out there that practice positive preaching and outreach instead of condemnation and shame.

My situation is similar to yours in that I am stuck in an increasingly antagonistic atmosphere at church. We would like to leave but I am deeply involved in the ministry and there is no one to take my place if I do leave. Not that I think I am so important that they couldn't survive without me... But I do enjoy my part of the ministry and it is something I would have a hard time finding somewhere else. So for now, we are staying put.
It doesn't help that the pastor is my dad. LOL If not for that, honestly, we would leave. We attend another church on Saturday night. It gives us the extra bump we need to get through Sunday.
I hope you find what you are looking for soon. Fellowship with like-minded believers is critical in our Christian walk.
James

Kathryn said...

Hi James - thanks for stopping by.

What a difficult situation you have been in. Wow.

Frankly it has been my pattern to walk away from conflict & situations i find stressful/unhealthy. That isn't a bad thing per se, but i've even tended to walk away from family relationships. I only visit my parents at their home every 4-5 years.

I've tried not to do that in this situation. But it has reached that point for me, tho i'm planning one last conversation, if it works out.

I can't imagine being in the place you're at where you can't walk away & make other choices.

Blessings on you & the Peace of the Lord. Thanks for adding your voice.

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Wife, wanted to be a mama - not going to happen, massage therapist, child of God. I can be emailed at: 4Kat2009@gmail.com